With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. The
idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
with May 14th and 15th as practice days.

The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.

The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:

1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
contests.
2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days

Differences from standard contests will be:

1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
start must be El Tiro Gliderport
2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
to OLC.
3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
permitted.
4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
ground communications between team members
5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
closed airspace may not apply. (We have not yet made a determination
about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
will not be permitted.

Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.

I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.

Mike

On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
> idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
> to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
> will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
> with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
> with May 14th and 15th as practice days.
>
> The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.
>
> The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:
>
> 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
> insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
> contests.
> 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
> 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days
>
> Differences from standard contests will be:
>
> 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
> start must be El Tiro Gliderport
> 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
> to OLC.
> 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
> window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
> each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
> permitted.
> 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
> ground communications between team members
> 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
> note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
> closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
> about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
> permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
> 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
> will not be permitted.
>
> Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
> best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
> distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.
>
> I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.
>
> Mike

This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. What are the
quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
Tiro flying area? Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?

Matt

On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
>
>
> > With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> > the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> > make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
> > idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
> > to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
> > will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
> > with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
> > with May 14th and 15th as practice days.
>
> > The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.
>
> > The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:
>
> > 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
> > insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
> > contests.
> > 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
> > 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days
>
> > Differences from standard contests will be:
>
> > 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
> > start must be El Tiro Gliderport
> > 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
> > to OLC.
> > 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
> > window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
> > each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
> > permitted.
> > 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
> > ground communications between team members
> > 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
> > note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
> > closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
> > about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
> > permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
> > 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
> > will not be permitted.
>
> > Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
> > best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
> > distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.
>
> > I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.
>
> > Mike
>
> This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
> for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the
> quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
> Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?
>
> Matt

The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in
some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in
other areas. It depends which way you go. Pilots with little XC
experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and
Estrella to the North. This area has lots of field landing areas and
several good airports/airstrips. There is a caution even for that
though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are
completely unlandable. With good altitude (>10k ft) a more lot of the
area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions
except West.

Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no
problem flying safely at El Tiro. Unlike Parowan the airport has 10
runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely
when you get back.

Andy

On Dec 15, 6:07*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > > With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> > > the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> > > make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
> > > idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
> > > to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
> > > will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
> > > with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
> > > with May 14th and 15th as practice days.
>
> > > The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.
>
> > > The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:
>
> > > 1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
> > > insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
> > > contests.
> > > 2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
> > > 3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days
>
> > > Differences from standard contests will be:
>
> > > 1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
> > > start must be El Tiro Gliderport
> > > 2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
> > > to OLC.
> > > 3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
> > > window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
> > > each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
> > > permitted.
> > > 4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
> > > ground communications between team members
> > > 5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
> > > note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
> > > closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
> > > about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
> > > permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
> > > 6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
> > > will not be permitted.
>
> > > Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
> > > best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
> > > distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.
>
> > > I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.
>
> > > Mike
>
> > This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
> > for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the
> > quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
> > Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?
>
> > Matt
>
> The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in
> some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in
> other areas. It depends which way you go. *Pilots with little XC
> experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and
> Estrella to the North. *This area has lots of field landing areas and
> several good airports/airstrips. *There is a caution even for that
> though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are
> completely unlandable. *With good altitude (>10k ft) a more lot of the
> area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions
> except West.
>
> Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no
> problem flying safely at El Tiro. *Unlike Parowan the airport has 10
> runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely
> when you get back.
>
> Andy

"a lot more of the area". I wish one could edit after posting.

On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 8:23*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> > the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> > make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *
>
> I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
> goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
> completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
> guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
> distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
> turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
> accomplished by waiver.
>
> Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
> "answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
> written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
> attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
> the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.
>
> John Cochrane

This sounds like a neat Idea, but I think there's nothing wrong with
calling an acual contest task. A good example of a XC camp/starter
contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.

I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
sports class conest this year.

Peter

>
.... A good example of a XC camp/starter
> contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
> Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
> acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
> is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
> task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
> categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.
>
> I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
> learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
> in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
> memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
> sports class conest this year.
>
> Peter

This option will be available for real (sanctioned) regional contests
this year. You can have two handicapped classes, call it "pro" and
"am" or "leisure" and "seizure", one with big tasks and one with a
more beginner friendly task.

So let's make Sky Soaring a regional contest this year!

Among the many advantages of running an event by ssa rules is that
pilots learn how contests work and discover they might be fun.

I'm surprised too if the Arizona crowd wants go-anywhere-you-want
distance tasks. Long unrestricted MAT are not particularly popular
elsewhere, to put it mildly. But if that's what you want, the rules
let you do it.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
>
> > With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
> > the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
> > make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *
>
> I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
> goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
> completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
> guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
> distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
> turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
> accomplished by waiver.
>
> Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
> "answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
> written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
> attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
> the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.
>
> John Cochrane

John:

Perhaps I should have used the term "issues" rather than "problems".

Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

Mike

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:

> I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
> goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest.

I heard that SSA would not give approval for a Region 9 South
contest, which is what Tucson club had wanted to host. No idea why,
but I'm not happy about it.

http://www.asa-soaring.org/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=3062&forum_id=4&Topic_Title=Cross+Country+Camp+at+El+Tiro+in+May+2 011

Andy

Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm keeping this open because we
really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
attractive as possible.

>
> Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
> no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *

This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
in to it.

>Secondly, we wanted a
> more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
> flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
> was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
> to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
> for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
> set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
> lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
> will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
> greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
> of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
> We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
> decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
> round a fixed course.

As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
huge turn areas.

>
> However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
> which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
> Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
> fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
> We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
> experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
> by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
> aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.

>
> Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
> improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!

>
> Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
> and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
> task-setting and scoring.

Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
"camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.

>
> In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
> don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
> necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
still available by waiver!

John

On Dec 15, 8:48*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> Mike:
> Thanks for the thoughtful response. *I'm keeping this open because we
> really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
> attractive as possible.
>
>
>
> > Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
> > no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *
>
> This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
> want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
> in to it.
>
> >Secondly, we wanted a
> > more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
> > flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
> > was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
> > to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
> > for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
> > set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
> > lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
> > will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
> > greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
> > of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
> > We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
> > decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
> > round a fixed course.
>
> As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
> You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
> huge turn areas.
>
>
>
> > However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
> > which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
> > Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
> > fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
> > We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
> > experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
> > by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
> > aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.
>
> For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
> year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
> if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.
>
>
>
> > Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
> > improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).
>
> For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
> required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
> a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
> want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!
>
>
>
> > Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
> > and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
> > task-setting and scoring.
>
> Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
> "camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
> You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
> like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
> an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.
>
>
>
> > In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
> > don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
> > necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.
>
> I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
> encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
> ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
> still available by waiver!
>
> John

I should also add that it's not as if Arizona has no competitive
racing. The Arizona Soaring Association race series is well-attended
and has many weekend races at a number of gliderports around the State
- in 2010 we completed 18 out of 20 scheduled days' racing!

We just thought we would do something different.

Our team flying has often taken the format where the lead flier will
nominate a turnpoint and the group then agrees on a course -
essentially a multi-pilot MAT. At the camp. we may also nominate some
tasks or turnpoints for training purposes to keep those unfamiliar
with the area over landable terrain.

Mike

On Dec 15, 7:48*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> Mike:
> Thanks for the thoughtful response. *I'm keeping this open because we
> really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
> attractive as possible.
>
>
>
> > Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
> > no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *
>
> This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
> want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
> in to it.
>
> >Secondly, we wanted a
> > more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
> > flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
> > was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
> > to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
> > for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
> > set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
> > lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
> > will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
> > greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
> > of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
> > We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
> > decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
> > round a fixed course.
>
> As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
> You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
> huge turn areas.
>
>
>
> > However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
> > which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
> > Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
> > fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
> > We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
> > experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
> > by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
> > aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.
>
> For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
> year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
> if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.
>
>
>
> > Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
> > improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).
>
> For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
> required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
> a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
> want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!
>
>
>
> > Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
> > and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
> > task-setting and scoring.
>
> Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
> "camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
> You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
> like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
> an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.
>
>
>
> > In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
> > don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
> > necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.
>
> I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
> encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
> ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
> still available by waiver!
>
> John

For me, it would be best if you decided it is a real "Camp" or a real
"Contest". A good XC camp has a mentor teamed up with 1-2 pilots
during the flight for the purpose of training, demonstration,
stretching goals, etc. The groups stick together for the day/week. In
a contest it's every pilot for themselves, and the goal is to put as
much distance between you and the other guy as possible (unless you
are a leach, of course...) You tend to fly alone, radio silent, and
isolated. The two formats are by definition, opposed to each other.

For anyone that has attended AirSailing events, you know they have
struck a nice balance by having a focused XC camp, and a separate,
very informal, but still official contest. The contest is wonderful
because while it is competitive, the tone is more cooperative, with
the more experienced pilots helping the less, and briefings including
lots of "newbie" details that help pilots learn the ropes. Task are
challenging, but not super aggressive, and picked with safety/landouts
in mind. A sanctioned contest also allows new pilots a way to be
ranked. Once in the air though, pilots are on their own.

One thing I have never seen, that would be interesting to me is "in
the air" training for contests. Pilots would be paired for skill
level and ship type. each pair would have a mentor pilot. A task
would be called. The mentor pilot would then help them make decisions
about weather, routes, thermals to skip or take, safety, landouts,
final glide, etc. along the course. The trio would stick together for
the whole task. At the end of the day, perhaps they could be scored
as "teams" just to learn the intricacies/strategies around the contest
rules and how they relate to decisions made in flight. Some post
flight log analysis would be super helpful too, to figure out where
improvements could be made to XC speed.

Matt

On Dec 15, 10:39*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
> > I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
> > goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest.
>
> I heard *that SSA would not give approval for a Region 9 South
> contest, which is what Tucson club had wanted to host. *No idea why,
> but I'm not happy about it.
>
> http://www.asa-soaring.org/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=3062&forum_id=4&T....
>
> Andy

There is absolutely no reason you can't have a Region 9 south contest.
Only issue would be if the
requested date conflicts with another contest.
It would be useful to find out who did not approve the request so this
can be addressed.
The contest committee wants to support contests in whatever way we can
consistent with safety etc.
I've run "rookie schools" as part of regionals for years to get new
pilots going. You guys could too. We do
ground sessions before flying, and individual as well as group
coaching. It's fun.
And, for 2011, by waiver, radio use in regionals will be available if
folks want to try it.
Go For It
UH

Sounds like you'll have a good camp/contest and have some fun and
hopefully some new XC pilots will learn a lot. I wish it wasn't a two
day drive from here to Tuscon or I'd consider joining you.

I'm also really glad this thread came up. I read through the rules
committee report that was posted yesterday but didn't really
understand the implications of these rule changes. Thanks Hank and
John for the descriptions of how the rules are becoming more flexible
for regional competitions. Now, if I could only find a regional
within a days drive of Wichita for 2011...

I apologize in advance for the long post, but I need to put forth some
arguments here!

P.S. does everyone in the USA know that when the SSA was formed in
1932, that the ONLY reason for the charter was to RACE gliders? Back
in 1932, that was the only reason for the formation of the
Association. Things may have changed in the last few years, but we
should not ignore our history.

Since I was involved with all of the contests in Region 9, and the
formation of a couple of "new" sites to hold contests in Region 9, I
HAVE to comment. We are fortunate in Region 9, as there are too many
clubs/sites wanting to hold contests. There is no way that there is
enough people for ALL of the places that wanted to hold sanctioned
contests in Region 9 this year. The 15 meter nationals are being run
with a regional, to ensure that we get enough turn-out to afford tow
pilots and the like, Parowan organizers wanted to run a contest
(haven't seen anything yet), and the Tucson club wanted to run another
contest like last year. Other regions may not have enough contests,
but Region 9 is fortunate to have such GREAT soaring. The
recommendation (not the final word from the SSA or otherwise) that the
club in Tucson wait a year before holding another contest. It was a
recommendation that was also given to other clubs after running their
first contest.

1. You don't want the club members to feel pushed out by all the
contestants and priorities that a contest will impose. There were a
few comments from club members at 2 of the above-mentioned sites, but
Tucson in particular has an ACTIVE great cross country school/
training, part of the active and growing ASA (Arizona Soaring
Association) and some of the old-time members of the club don't like
contests, don't like youth, and you have to be respectful to ALL
members of the club, when you have a GREAT racing site like Tucson.
That club is actually one of the premier soaring sites and facilities
that I have ever seen.

2. In the Southwest, you have a problem being able to afford the Tow
Pilots. Because they have to travel such great distances to get
there, and then because of the density altitudes, the mountain ranges,
etc., You also have a problem getting tow Pilots that have good safety
records, good planes and practiced at towing. The major problem is
that the best tow pilots are towing for their clubs, and the clubs
aren't willing to give up their pilots or planes for a week of a
contest and lose the business at their local clubs! Most of the good
soaring sites in Region 9 have to have the gliders towed out to almost
beyond glide back to the airport, because of geographical terrain.

3. You have to find people willing to be contest managers. The
contest management job is a non-paid, non-appreciated difficult job to
do. Most of the people in the SSA racing committee (with the few
exceptions of Garrett and Karl, both of whom leave the details to
their wives) have or understand the management of a contest. Each
location in Region 9, have been training new contest managers, and
training scorers. Racing is definitely on the upswing in Region 9,
and not decreasing as in other regions. I also have an "issue" with
the racing committee that makes new rules and then doesn't officially
inform any of the contests managers (who are almost NEVER racing
pilots) of any new rules changes, even when they already have contests
sanctioned. That is another discussion for another time and place.

4. A lot of pilots give LOTS of reasons why they don't want to fly in
contests, and the number one reason that I hear, is that I am not a
competitive type, and I won't endanger myself or my ship by flying in
a contest. Whether that is valid or not is a different discussion for
a different time. The only people that I hear complain about the
costs of contests are the people that actually alread fly in the
contests, and then I always ask them to review the Profit/Loss
statements that contest managers are required to give out to each
contestant. No one has ever come back with anything after actually
reading the profit/loss statements. I did have one pilot in the last
5 years, ask me about an item on the P/L statement, but that resulted
in a change in the way one line item was reported, and the pilot
offered to help with that line item the next year. God Bless pilots
who read the numbers! (He is one of my favorites). If people
complain about costs at my contests, they can always ask for the
budget before hand, as I prepare budgets before I send in a sanction
request. My average profit for a sanctioned contest in Region 9, is
about $500 dollars. Obviously, I manage contests for the love of the
pilots within my region and even then, I mostly donate my share of
the company profits to the Bultman Fund, Juniors, and US teams.

5. All of the regional contests in Region 9 DO have instructional
classes (bless Karl Streideick for starting that tradition at
Parowan). They are very well attended and many pilots look forward to
them. At the Tucson club, we had a lot of the club members who were
not racing attend the classes. It is a WONDERFUL way to share
knowledge and love the sport with everyone. Last year, I had several
club members that weren't racing tell me how much they learned and
enjoyed from the great class leaders. THANK YOU to Billy Hill for
arranging the classes!

the Tucson Soaring Club has worked hard to come up with a plan that
would entice many people, without the restrictions of the contests as
they were known at the time of planning. (another issue with the race
committee, is that the lead time for approval is WAY too short) Most
people NEED at least a year to get vacation time to get to a contest.
Hence the new rules of regionals that can be run in successive
weekends. However, the successive weekends don't help much when
Region 9 is so huge, that it takes a day's drive to get to each
contest sites, and that's only if you are a local.

Having an "OLC Cross Country Camp" solves a lot of problems with
having an SSA sanctioned contest:
1. Every pilot can soar to the level that they are comfortable with
based on their own levels of achievement
2. You don't have to compete with other's in different ships within
the same class, unless you want to
3. You can review the area, and decide what terrain you are most
comfortable with, AND you talk to the other pilots on the radio to see
what is happening on the other side of the same contest area
4. You can try out stuff you learn in the classes that are held every
morning and stretch your knowledge, without jeopardizing your position
in the "rankings", (pardon the pun) that rankle pilots who are not
competitive, but can't stand seeing experiments based on newly gained
knowledge drop them to the bottom of the list.
5. OLC is fun, because you can compare it to your own past history,
even if you are in a new location
6. OLC is fun, because you can compare your flights to everyone in
the world, not just within the state/contest or club.

Another advantage to this type of contest/cross country/OLC/camp, is
that you can practice landing-out. The skill and experience with
landing out is SO important that pilots really should NOT race in an
SSA sanctioned contest without experience at land outs. A lot of
clubs will not allow pilots to practice their land outs, so then how
is a pilot to practice that? this is a great place with no stress
added to the procedure (more than the normal drat and durn, I can't
make it frustration).

I am a whole hearted supporter of this idea that the Tucson Club came
up with. It is not a replacement to SSA sanctioned contests, it is a
way to gather pilots, have training, fun, and race. Of course, if
everyone in the neighboring regions want to come to one of the 4-5
planned SSA sanctioned contests in Region 9, we would WELCOME them
with open arms. Soaring in this area is INCREDIBLE...Every state
within Region 9 has some of the best soaring in the country (Wyoming,
Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico). If you want to fly in a
"sanctioned" contest, we have plenty of those too.....but this OLC one
should be lots of FUN too.

Besides, the best two OLC clubs in the entire World all seem to be in
Region 9! I love the rivalry between Albq. and Tucson! All the
rivalry can't be anything but GOOD for the sport.

Micki

>
> Since I was involved with all of the contests in Region 9, and the
> formation of a couple of "new" sites to hold contests in Region 9, I
> HAVE to comment. *We are fortunate in Region 9, as there are too many
> clubs/sites wanting to hold contests. *There is no way that there is
> enough people for ALL of the places that wanted to hold sanctioned
> contests in Region 9 this year. *
>


My husband Charlie"Lite" just read my response, and wanted everyone
to
know that a contest application was never turned in for approval/
denial, and
if it had been turned in, in his role as Region 9 director, he would
have
approved it, he just asked that it had to be the only one in the South
area of Region 9,
and not conflict with any National dates. He didn't feel that I had
been clear
enough that there was no denial.

*Racing is definitely on the upswing in Region 9,
> and not decreasing as in other regions. *I also have an "issue" with
> the racing committee that makes new rules and then doesn't officially
> inform any of the contests managers (who are almost NEVER racing
> pilots) of any new rules changes, even when they already have contests
> sanctioned. That is another discussion for another time and place.
>
My husband also wanted me to state that he feels that posting on the
website is totally acceptable for notification of the rule changes.
However, that is where I disagree. I feel that I know where to look
for the rule changes because Charlie"Lite" is a Region 9 Director,
I feel that not all contest manager's know where to look for the
November meeting (not held in enough time for changes in the next
spring, IMHO)
changes and how the changes are interpreted by the rules committee.

I feel that the rules committee should look at a list of the contests
that are already applied for at the time of the changes, and send
a notice with interpretation to all contest managers with contests
already requested for sanctioning.

Anyway, just for clarification
Micki

On Dec 16, 8:22*am, MickiMinner > wrote:
> I apologize in advance for the long post, but I need to put forth some
> arguments here!
>
> *P.S. does everyone in the USA know that when the SSA was formed in
> 1932, that the ONLY reason for the charter was to RACE gliders? *Back
> in 1932, that was the only reason for the formation of the
> Association. *Things may have changed in the last few years, but we
> should not ignore our history.
>
> Since I was involved with all of the contests in Region 9, and the
> formation of a couple of "new" sites to hold contests in Region 9, I
> HAVE to comment. *We are fortunate in Region 9, as there are too many
> clubs/sites wanting to hold contests. *There is no way that there is
> enough people for ALL of the places that wanted to hold sanctioned
> contests in Region 9 this year. *The 15 meter nationals are being run
> with a regional, to ensure that we get enough turn-out to afford tow
> pilots and the like, Parowan organizers wanted to run a contest
> (haven't seen anything yet), and the Tucson club wanted to run another
> contest like last year. *Other regions may not have enough contests,
> but Region 9 is fortunate to have such GREAT soaring. *The
> recommendation (not the final word from the SSA or otherwise) that the
> club in Tucson wait a year before holding another contest. *It was a
> recommendation that was also given to other clubs after running their
> first contest.
>
> 1. *You don't want the club members to feel pushed out by all the
> contestants and priorities that a contest will impose. *There were a
> few comments from club members at 2 of the above-mentioned sites, but
> Tucson in particular has an ACTIVE great cross country school/
> training, part of the active and growing ASA (Arizona Soaring
> Association) and some of the old-time members of the club don't like
> contests, don't like youth, and you have to be respectful to ALL
> members of the club, when you have a GREAT racing site like Tucson.
> That club is actually one of the premier soaring sites and facilities
> that I have ever seen.
>
> 2. *In the Southwest, you have a problem being able to afford the Tow
> Pilots. *Because they have to travel such great distances to get
> there, and then because of the density altitudes, the mountain ranges,
> etc., You also have a problem getting tow Pilots that have good safety
> records, good planes and practiced at towing. *The major problem is
> that the best tow pilots are towing for their clubs, and the clubs
> aren't willing to give up their pilots or planes for a week of a
> contest and lose the business at their local clubs! *Most of the good
> soaring sites in Region 9 have to have the gliders towed out to almost
> beyond glide back to the airport, because of geographical terrain.
>
> 3. *You have to find people willing to be contest managers. *The
> contest management job is a non-paid, non-appreciated difficult job to
> do. *Most of the people in the SSA racing committee (with the few
> exceptions of Garrett and Karl, both of whom leave the details to
> their wives) have or understand the management of a contest. * Each
> location in Region 9, *have been training new contest managers, and
> training scorers. *Racing is definitely on the upswing in Region 9,
> and not decreasing as in other regions. *I also have an "issue" with
> the racing committee that makes new rules and then doesn't officially
> inform any of the contests managers (who are almost NEVER racing
> pilots) of any new rules changes, even when they already have contests
> sanctioned. That is another discussion for another time and place.
>
> 4. *A lot of pilots give LOTS of reasons why they don't want to fly in
> contests, and the number one reason that I hear, is that I am not a
> competitive type, and I won't endanger myself or my ship by flying in
> a contest. *Whether that is valid or not is a different discussion for
> a different time. *The only people that I hear complain about the
> costs of contests are the people that actually alread fly in the
> contests, and then I always ask them to review the Profit/Loss
> statements that contest managers are required to give out to each
> contestant. *No one has ever come back with anything after actually
> reading the profit/loss statements. *I did have one pilot in the last
> 5 years, ask me about an item on the P/L statement, but that resulted
> in a change in the way one line item was reported, and the pilot
> offered to help with that line item the next year. *God Bless pilots
> who read the numbers! *(He is one of my favorites). *If people
> complain about costs at my contests, they can always ask for the
> budget before hand, as I prepare budgets before I send in a sanction
> request. *My average profit for a sanctioned contest in Region 9, is
> about $500 dollars. *Obviously, I manage contests for the love of the
> pilots within my region and even then, I mostly donate my share of
> the *company profits to the Bultman Fund, Juniors, and US teams.
>
> 5. *All of the regional contests in Region 9 DO have instructional
> classes (bless Karl Streideick for starting that tradition at
> Parowan). *They are very well attended and many pilots look forward to
> them. *At the Tucson club, we had a lot of the club members who were
> not racing attend the classes. *It is a WONDERFUL way to share
> knowledge and love the sport with everyone. *Last year, I had several
> club members that weren't racing tell me how much they learned and
> enjoyed from the great class leaders. THANK YOU to Billy Hill for
> arranging the classes!
>
> the Tucson Soaring Club has worked hard to come up with a plan that
> would entice many people, without the restrictions of the contests as
> they were known at the time of planning. *(another issue with the race
> committee, is that the lead time for approval is WAY too short) *Most
> people NEED at least a year to get vacation time to get to a contest.
> Hence the new rules of regionals that can be run in successive
> weekends. *However, the successive weekends don't help much when
> Region 9 is so huge, that it takes a day's drive to get to each
> contest sites, and that's only if you are a local.
>
> Having an "OLC Cross Country Camp" solves a lot of problems with
> having an SSA sanctioned contest:
> 1. *Every pilot can soar to the level that they are comfortable with
> based on their own levels of achievement
> 2. *You don't have to compete with other's in different ships within
> the same class, unless you want to
> 3. *You can review the area, and decide what terrain you are most
> comfortable with, AND you talk to the other pilots on the radio to see
> what is happening on the other side of the same contest area
> 4. *You can try out stuff you learn in the classes that are held every
> morning and stretch your knowledge, without jeopardizing your position
> in the "rankings", (pardon the pun) that rankle pilots who are not
> competitive, but can't stand seeing experiments based on newly gained
> knowledge drop them to the bottom of the list.
> 5. *OLC is fun, because you can compare it to your own past history,
> even if you are in a new location
> 6. *OLC is fun, because you can compare your flights to everyone in
> the world, not just within the state/contest or club.
>
> Another advantage to this type of contest/cross country/OLC/camp, is
> that you can practice landing-out. *The skill and experience with
> landing out is SO important that pilots really should NOT race in an
> SSA sanctioned contest without experience at land outs. *A lot of
> clubs will not allow pilots to practice their land outs, so then how
> is a pilot to practice that? *this is a great place with no stress
> added to the procedure (more than the normal drat and durn, I can't
> make it frustration).
>
> I am a whole hearted supporter of this idea that the Tucson Club came
> up with. *It is not a replacement to SSA sanctioned contests, it is a
> way to gather pilots, have training, fun, and race. *Of course, if
> everyone in the neighboring regions want to come to one of the 4-5
> planned SSA sanctioned contests in Region 9, we would WELCOME them
> with open arms. *Soaring in this area is INCREDIBLE...Every state
> within Region 9 has some of the best soaring in the country (Wyoming,
> Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico). *If you want to fly in a
> "sanctioned" contest, we have plenty of those too.....but this OLC one
> should be lots of FUN too.
>
> Besides, the best two OLC clubs in the entire World all seem to be in
> Region 9! *I love the rivalry between Albq. and Tucson! *All the
> rivalry can't be anything but GOOD for the sport.
>
> Micki

Micki:

You filled in a lot of the details and arguments that I left out.
Would you like to come and run it for us?

Mike

I take Micki's post as an explanation why the Region 9 soaring
community may only want to run one regional this year, at Logan.
That's fine.

But just for the record -- and for the rest of you who I hope are
thinking about putting on a regional -- let's be clear that nothing in
the rules or siting traditions stops you from running another regional
if you feel like it:

1. There is no "slot" issue! Yes, it would be nice for very nearby
sites to coordinate a bit, but we're not even close to that problem.
There are very few western regionals scheduled at all this year. It is
perfectly fine to run a regional in Arizona at the same time as one is
going on in Pennsylvania! It is perfectly fine by the rules to run an
Arizona regional in May and Utah regional in July. Many regions have
"north" and "south" regionals in the same year.

2. You can ask for a waiver for just about anything you want. This
year, we're encouraging waivers for talking on the radio, but anyone
could have asked for it in years past. Of course it needs to be
sensible, fair, safe and well thought out. But we want to encourage
experimentation.

Have fun!
John Cochrane

On Dec 16, 8:22*am, MickiMinner > wrote:
>The recommendation (not the final word from the SSA or otherwise) that the
>club in Tucson wait a year before holding another contest. It was a
>recommendation that was also given to other clubs after running their
>first contest.

I accept that there will not be a regional hosted by TuSC in 2011 but
I'm puzzled by the statement above which seems to suggest that 2010
was TuSC first regional contest.

2010 was, I think, the fourth regional that I have flown at El Tiro.
Don't have my log here but the first was over 20 years ago when I flew
a Std Jantar.

Maybe there are other 2011 Region 9 contests that have not made it to
the SSA calendar yet. I hope so.

Andy

On Dec 16, 11:09*am, MickiMinner > wrote:
> > Since I was involved with all of the contests in Region 9, and the
> > formation of a couple of "new" sites to hold contests in Region 9, I
> > HAVE to comment. *We are fortunate in Region 9, as there are too many
> > clubs/sites wanting to hold contests. *There is no way that there is
> > enough people for ALL of the places that wanted to hold sanctioned
> > contests in Region 9 this year. *
>
> My husband Charlie"Lite" just read my response, and wanted everyone
> to
> know that a contest application was never turned in for approval/
> denial, and
> if it had been turned in, in his role as Region 9 director, he would
> have
> approved it, he just asked that it had to be the only one in the South
> area of Region 9,
> and not conflict with any National dates. *He didn't feel that I had
> been clear
> enough that there was no denial.
>
> **Racing is definitely on the upswing in Region 9,> and not decreasing as in other regions. *I also have an "issue" with
> > the racing committee that makes new rules and then doesn't officially
> > inform any of the contests managers (who are almost NEVER racing
> > pilots) of any new rules changes, even when they already have contests
> > sanctioned. That is another discussion for another time and place.
>
> My husband also wanted me to state that he feels that posting on the
> website is totally acceptable for notification of the rule changes.
> However, that is where I disagree. *I feel that I know where to look
> for the rule changes because Charlie"Lite" is a Region 9 Director,
> I feel that not all contest manager's know where to look for the
> November meeting (not held in enough time for changes in the next
> spring, IMHO)
> changes and how the changes are interpreted by the rules committee.
>
> I feel that the rules committee should look at a list of the contests
> that are already applied for at the time of the changes, and send
> a notice with interpretation to all contest managers with contests
> already requested for sanctioning.
>
> Anyway, just for clarification
> Micki

Re rules Process:
Thus far, only minutes of the Fall meeting have been published.
Soon to be published will be the Draft Rules changes for 2011.
There will be a comment period of about 3-4 weeks after which the
poroposed rules will be published
to the BOD for review and approval at the winter BOD meeting.
After approval, they are published on the SSA web site and
notification is published on the SSA web site and
on RAS- widely read.
The rules changes, with explanations should not be hard to digest.
Ken Sorenson has indicated he will do a special wake up call to
organizers to ensure they are aware of changes.
That give all winter to absorb and deal with affects of changes.
This process has been in place for more than 10 years and should be no
surprise.
UH- RC Chair

On Dec 16, 10:01*am, Andy > wrote:

> I'm puzzled by the statement above which seems to suggest that 2010
> was TuSC first regional contest.


TuSC hosted Region 9 at El Tiro 1987, 1991, 1992. 1987 was memorable
for the first over 100mph task flown in Arizona. On the same day a dry
Std Jantar did 266 miles at over 80mph to win Sport Class. (that's why
I remember the day)

Andy